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Re: Hawks keeping 70 percent of old offense according to Sho

Postby HawkBowler on Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:39 am

ThePro wrote:
HawkBowler wrote:
Notice Wilson had a better QB rating than teams with a better running attack.

Almost every QB throws better when play action passing, but you keep missing the point. Should a team run play action pass on 3rd and 25? By your reasoning the QB automatically passes better and the RB is a non-factor.

Need more data and more exploration into situational football. Play action passing is great on 2nd and 5. Not so great on 4th and 5. Why?


My point is that a running game or caliber of running back does not effect play action. Wilson has neither yet his PA passer rating is higher than alot of QBs that have both. This wouldn't be possible at all by your imaginary analysis.



Play action passing doesn't work unless the opposing defense respects the offenses' ability to run. Nothing gauges that respect more than a serious threat in the backfield. I don't need to argue with you because this matter is self-evident and nobody with knowledge of football would deny it.

What you're really saying is Wilson throws better on first and second downs.... the downs in which most PA takes place. Wilson has better throwing numbers with PA because it's easier to throw on early downs.

Please explain to us why the best play action teams last year all had strong running games. Coincidence? Try again...
 
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Re: Hawks keeping 70 percent of old offense according to Sho

Postby HawkBowler on Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:53 am

HawkBowler wrote:
Pro wrote:Pete Caroll, for one, disagrees with you mightily. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BALL.


That is a reference to turnovers . Creating them and not committing them on Offense. Not his defenders looking in the backfield.


Turnovers are just one part of the ALL ABOUT THE BALL philosophy... and not the most important.

Pete explains this in his book Win Forever. He wants his players to be focused on where the ball is at all times regardless of the position they play. Too often players get caught up with their play responsibilities and they lose track of the ball.

Take the WR, for example, they have a lot to worry about on each play. They need to line up correctly, read the DBs and execute their route. If the ball is thrown well they need to make the catch. But if they don't make the catch, everything they might have done right up until that point is lost.... because they weren't focused on the ball. One of the common errors we see with receivers is that they try to run before securing the catch.

On the defensive side they don't have to handle the ball, but the philosophy is still important. Defenders, regardless of position, need to be focused on where the ball is at all times. On every play they need to gravitate to the ball so they might tackle the guy carrying it.

Our game is really not all that different from European football. It's about moving a ball from point A to point B and scoring. Just like in soccer, players need to know where the ball is at all times. This IS difficult in the NFL because it's a complicated game in terms of X's and O's. A player can get lost and forget the most important factor -- the ball.

Even though players have kidded Pete in recent years about sounding like a broken record, there's no doubt that his philosophy has paid dividends. ALL ABOUT THE BALL really shows up when a Kam or Earl is focussed on the ball around the goal line (instead of the carrier).... we've several spectacular plays where the Hawks were able to dislodge the ball and prevent the TD.
 
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Re: Hawks keeping 70 percent of old offense according to Sho

Postby ThePro on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:48 am

HawkBowler wrote:
HawkBowler wrote:
Pro wrote:Pete Caroll, for one, disagrees with you mightily. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BALL.


That is a reference to turnovers . Creating them and not committing them on Offense. Not his defenders looking in the backfield.


Turnovers are just one part of the ALL ABOUT THE BALL philosophy... and not the most important.

Pete explains this in his book Win Forever. He wants his players to be focused on where the ball is at all times regardless of the position they play. Too often players get caught up with their play responsibilities and they lose track of the ball.

Take the WR, for example, they have a lot to worry about on each play. They need to line up correctly, read the DBs and execute their route. If the ball is thrown well they need to make the catch. But if they don't make the catch, everything they might have done right up until that point is lost.... because they weren't focused on the ball. One of the common errors we see with receivers is that they try to run before securing the catch.

On the defensive side they don't have to handle the ball, but the philosophy is still important. Defenders, regardless of position, need to be focused on where the ball is at all times. On every play they need to gravitate to the ball so they might tackle the guy carrying it.

Our game is really not all that different from European football. It's about moving a ball from point A to point B and scoring. Just like in soccer, players need to know where the ball is at all times. This IS difficult in the NFL because it's a complicated game in terms of X's and O's. A player can get lost and forget the most important factor -- the ball.

Even though players have kidded Pete in recent years about sounding like a broken record, there's no doubt that his philosophy has paid dividends. ALL ABOUT THE BALL really shows up when a Kam or Earl is focussed on the ball around the goal line (instead of the carrier).... we've several spectacular plays where the Hawks were able to dislodge the ball and prevent the TD.


You have a link to show where he wants his defenders to key on the back instead of their reads on a run play? If not your post is All ABOUT THE BS.
 
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Re: Hawks keeping 70 percent of old offense according to Sho

Postby HawkBowler on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:53 am

I've already provided a link in this thread that proves empirically that teams that are good at running are also the best at play action passing.

You gave a link to somebody's opinion from Bucs nation.

Will you now bring back Bleeding Green Nation and other FAN sites from years past?

Or will you ask for a link proving that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West?
 
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Re: Hawks keeping 70 percent of old offense according to Sho

Postby ThePro on Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:38 pm

HawkBowler wrote:I've already provided a link in this thread that proves empirically that teams that are good at running are also the best at play action passing.

You gave a link to somebody's opinion from Bucs nation.

Will you now bring back Bleeding Green Nation and other FAN sites from years past?

Or will you ask for a link proving that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West?



Oh i'm sorry yours was from " The Ringer" that's much more credible. And you didn't even understand the stats that you produced. It showed the teams that ran the highest percentage of play action plays. Nothing in there about who was best at it..like the article I produced from Pro Football Focus. I guess because their data makes you look foolish they aren't reputable enough either.
 
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Re: Hawks keeping 70 percent of old offense according to Sho

Postby HawkBowler on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:13 pm

It's all there if you can read in between the lines, Pro.

The evidence you've given for why the RB is not important on play action is that some teams with good RBs like the Steelers or Packers are not doing well in the PA department. There could be many factors for that. When you look at Ben and Rodgers these guys are gun slingers. They're not afraid to go deep down field on first and 2nd downs because they're able to make up for incompletions on those downs. In other words, the QB might be the more important factor. Wilson, on the other hand, is not taking risks on those downs in the same way. Throwing high completion % passes instead.

But really... you're being ridiculous with the notion that it doesn't matter who's playing RB or that defenses don't watch the ball. If that were true there would be no reason to run play action.
 
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Re: Hawks keeping 70 percent of old offense according to Sho

Postby ThePro on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:34 am

HawkBowler wrote:It's all there if you can read in between the lines, Pro.

The evidence you've given for why the RB is not important on play action is that some teams with good RBs like the Steelers or Packers are not doing well in the PA department. There could be many factors for that. When you look at Ben and Rodgers these guys are gun slingers. They're not afraid to go deep down field on first and 2nd downs because they're able to make up for incompletions on those downs. In other words, the QB might be the more important factor. Wilson, on the other hand, is not taking risks on those downs in the same way. Throwing high completion % passes instead.

But really... you're being ridiculous with the notion that it doesn't matter who's playing RB or that defenses don't watch the ball. If that were true there would be no reason to run play action.


I'm talking to someone who never played and/ or coached organized football. There shouldn't be a reason to run play action. Sweeps should never work. Neither should trap plays. Neither should fake punts etc... breakdowns happen.

Here is an excerpt of coaching points for LBs from a college coach.

The first and most important part
of the recognition process is keying our opponents guards. We teach our linebackers to focus their eyes on the guard covering from the helmet to shoulder pad area. They have to stay disciplined in locking their focus on that guard. Do not allow their eyes to drift into the backfeld,that will come later. Explain to them that the guard will take them to the play.


These are basic principles being taught to defenders in middle school. You diagnose and run to where the play is going. One of the worst things you can do is look in the backfield at the back like you are suggesting. You're wrong. You are making stuff up.

Volume of passes has nothing to do with PA passer rating. If caliber of back was relevant. Defenses would be keying on Levon Bell. Right? It would be impossible for Wilson to have a higher PA passer rating than Roethlisberger or Bortles. You explanation doesn't make any. sense.
 
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Re: Hawks keeping 70 percent of old offense according to Sho

Postby HawkBowler on Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:05 am

You diagnose and run to where the play is going. One of the worst things you can do is look in the backfield at the back like you are suggesting. You're wrong. You are making stuff up.


Read your own crap and correct yourself.

It is clear that YOU have never played football.

Admit it

You've exposed yourself.

:lol:
 
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