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Re: cast out the fallen angels Game Thread 8/11

Postby ice99 on Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:00 am

I'd like to see Pagan getting a start, for 4 - 5 innings.
 
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Re: cast out the fallen angels Game Thread 8/11

Postby ice99 on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:21 am

Haniger with a home run and 2 walks as a DH, in his rehab game.
 
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Re: cast out the fallen angels Game Thread 8/11

Postby ddraig on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:45 am

D-Trains wrote:
ddraig wrote:Wasn't it last off season that a number of fairly good FA starting pitchers were available? Compared to this next off season, it was a bonanza for those teams looking for SP's to fill out their rotation. Yes, many were resigned by their current clubs, but those that moved on were still pretty good compared to this year's crop. With nothing in the cupboard for trades, next year will be more of the same unless we get a relative healthy year out of Felix and Paxton.

Remember, too, that most of us on the forum were screaming for DiPoto to augment starting pitching with a proven arm or two. There were Caddies, Porsches, and Ferraris out there, as well as Fords and Chevys What did we get? A Fiat Tipolino, a BMW Isetta, and a Reliant Robin. Not even a Yugo among the bunch. And the sad fact of the matter is that the Tipolino and Isetta both came with only three wheels on the ground while the Robin already had only three wheels and DiPoto knew it!


Your Alzheimer's must be kicking in again. The SP market last year was probably the worst in 20 years. Rich Hill was the Headliner.

dt


(Sarcasm alert.)

Quite possibly, but looking at this year's crop of SP's, I'm beginning to think my idea of calling a person out of the stands to pitch may not be such a bad idea. If we could call in one person per out for five innings (not much different from what we now get from our "starters") and then go to the bullpen, we could A) save a lot of wear and tear on the bullpen, B) change our SP's over to bull pen arms which would now give us 12 BP arms, and C) give the fans something better to do rather than wander around the concourses. Maybe they would then pay attention to the game. Oh, wait, that's the least thing ownership wants you to do. They want you to go to the park for the "fan experience," not the game!

Oh, are any of these guys still pitching? Wei-Yin Chen, Johnny Cueto, Bartolo Colon, Zach Greinke, J.A. Happ, Rich Hill, Scott Kazmir, Ian Kennedy, David Price, Jeff Smardzija, or Jordan Zimmerman? Instead, we got Drew Smyly (out for the season), Yovani Gut-Yardo (may as well be out for the season), and Hisashi Iwakuma (pitched 5 games). Yes, some of those guys have had bad years, and others have not pitched the entire season, but I do submit that the 2016 FA's listed were/are better than the guys we signed in the hopes that they would survive the year. Then too, we didn't have a ghost's chance of signing some of them because they went back to their team in the end. Still, that group makes this year's crop of FA's look bad. And that was my point.

Sadly, we'll have to dip into the FA market again this year. Hopefully we'll get some guys that can pitch an entire season. At this point, I'd take anyone off the 2017 list that can give us five innings a game and start 25 games or so.
 
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Re: cast out the fallen angels Game Thread 8/11

Postby D-Trains on Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:28 am

ice99 wrote:I'd like to see Pagan getting a start, for 4 - 5 innings.


Yes, I mentioned that before. We have nothing but terrible starters sans ERam last night who of course was taken out for Casey freakin Lawrence so why not Pagan. If anyone thinks that managers don't impact games, watching the first three games of this series will change there minds. Classic case study.

dt
 
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Re: cast out the fallen angels Game Thread 8/11

Postby Don Gorgon on Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:36 am

whether the manager affects a game a lot or a little, the impact was no more or less than all the other games, that is what you are missing, SS is managing uniformly, for a month there they had the best record in the AL, not because he was being smarter but the moves he made happened to work, that is the players performed, but as soon as the players failed to perform suddenly his managing became idiotic. Far as I am concerned it is a classic case of the outcomes coloring the decisions, so long as the outcomes work the decisions seem good, as soon as the outcomes fail to work the decisions are questioned, even though it was the same decision process for all of them
 
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Re: cast out the fallen angels Game Thread 8/11

Postby D-Trains on Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:41 am

Don Gorgon wrote:whether the manager affects a game a lot or a little, the impact was no more or less than all the other games, that is what you are missing, SS is managing uniformly, for a month there they had the best record in the AL, not because he was being smarter but the moves he made happened to work, that is the players performed, but as soon as the players failed to perform suddenly his managing became idiotic. Far as I am concerned it is a classic case of the outcomes coloring the decisions, so long as the outcomes work the decisions seem good, as soon as the outcomes fail to work the decisions are questioned, even though it was the same decision process for all of them


To a point but I questioned bringing in Diaz and Lawrence before the bad outcomes. OTOH, I hate the Alonso trade now whereas initially I like it because I hadn't thought through the impact on the bullpen.

dt
 
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Re: cast out the fallen angels Game Thread 8/11

Postby Don Gorgon on Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:50 am

okay so you do not believe a closer should be used in a tie game, but that to me is a philosophical issue, not one of being stupid. But come on, I could go back through the game threads and I bet any game that seemed to be decided by the pitching is blamed on SS being stupid. I feel like I should have kept a running tally, it would have been quite a few games. Its like relating your hand with the outcome of a coin toss, sure your hand has a huge impact, it tosses the coin, but in terms of actual outcome its negligible. Its the same with a manager, it seems to me that even conservatively SS is held responsible for at least five losses, so extrapolated over a season, that be seven? So a good manager is worth seven wins over a bad one? In terms of WAR that would be what, $50 mil. If managers are in fact so important to outcomes then why doesn't the marketplace reflect that value? Isn't marketplace the real test of value?
 
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Re: cast out the fallen angels Game Thread 8/11

Postby D-Trains on Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:55 am

Don Gorgon wrote:okay so you do not believe a closer should be used in a tie game, but that to me is a philosophical issue, not one of being stupid. But come on, I could go back through the game threads and I bet any game that seemed to be decided by the pitching is blamed on SS being stupid. I feel like I should have kept a running tally, it would have been quite a few games. Its like relating your hand with the outcome of a coin toss, sure your hand has a huge impact, it tosses the coin, but in terms of actual outcome its negligible. Its the same with a manager, it seems to me that even conservatively SS is held responsible for at least five losses, so extrapolated over a season, that be seven? So a good manager is worth seven wins over a bad one? In terms of WAR that would be what, $50 mil. If managers are in fact so important to outcomes then why doesn't the marketplace reflect that value? Isn't marketplace the real test of value?


It is supply and demand (hundreds of qualified managers willing to do it for a few million a year) and the inability to prove how many games managers definitively impact. Too many other factors. I am ok with using Diaz in a tie game just not in the 9th when he had pitched two games in a row and when Vincent was the better option. It is more complex of a decision than just the score of the game.

dt
 
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Re: cast out the fallen angels Game Thread 8/11

Postby D-Trains on Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:59 am

And now we have the Cards who looked like they were going to FINALLY have a bad season and not make the playoffs. They are the opposite of cursed.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/248028442 ... ight-game/
 
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Re: cast out the fallen angels Game Thread 8/11

Postby Don Gorgon on Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:09 am

come on, how many would be happy to play baseball if they were deemed any good at it? It not about supply and demand, its about success rate, the reason there is such a big supply is there is no significant difference in outcomes no matter who does the managing. If there was no significant difference in outcomes with at bats with who went out to take them wouldn't that create a huge reservoir of available baseball players?

And take your Diaz issue, you are totally fixated on a bad outcome. I bet I could go and find lots of instances of closers coming into tie games and doing their job, that is getting three outs but those are ignored, nobody cares about good outcomes as much as being concerned about bad ones. So so this time Diaz comes in and fails, I contend that failure is totally within his normal failure/success rate but it immediately gets associated with the score happening to be tied and that becomes the cause of the bad outcome when in fact I don't believe there is any direct correlation at all.

I like my hand analogy, managers are the hand to baseball outcomes, I think the manager gets fixated on in terms of them but in reality its like fixating on someone's hand when they flip a coin. Sure there are better managers than others, but a lot of that has to do with preparation for the coin flip as opposed to actually flipping it
 
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