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Re: Russia/Trump Connections - Fleshing Out the Story

Postby HawkBowler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:33 am

SeaFreak wrote:
HawkBowler wrote:
So why did half the country vote for Trump?


Nowhere near half the country voted for Trump. 55% voter turnout * 46% of the votes = 25%. 75% of voting eligible adults did not cast a vote for Donald Trump. Of the 25% that voted for Trump, many of them were just voting against Hillary or voting for their preferred party. So, about 10% of voting age US Citizens were actually Trump fans on election day.


Right, I realize there's low voter turnout, but the millions that did vote can be used to determine how all Americans would have voted with scientific accuracy.

Both JFK and Bill Clinton received less votes. Trump won more counties than any candidate in history. The point is that Trump won and the country is evenly split. So when we have a media that swings 90/10 in one direction, they are not representing America evenly.
 
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Re: Russia/Trump Connections - Fleshing Out the Story

Postby Soggyblogger on Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:11 am

HawkBowler wrote:

Maybe we can start back at the basics of the Russiagate saga instead of talking over each other. For that we need to agree on facts. You like to string together what you believe are true facts and I do the same. However, we can't both be right... god help us if both Obama and Trump did what they were accused of.

So fact 1: Obama started Russiagate by ordering a report on Russian interference in the election, kicking out diplomats and slapping sanctions on Russia. By doing that he setup a premise that the MSM has not disputed -- Russia hacked the election and wanted Trump to win.

Do you disagree with this starting point? Also, if you believe that Obama was justified in doing the above, why?

Please give me more than the standard untrue line that American intelligence is all in agreement. This report was conducted by a small number of high ranking Obama officials.


Seriously? You honestly cannot answer this question for me? I have answered this question at least twice in this thread, and maybe four or more times. I have actually answered this question in detail. But before I repeat my answer I want to comment on your point that we ought to agree to limit the discussion to facts and single issues until we establish some facts. And this one is a fine place to start in spite of the provable fact that I have already expressed my opinion on this question in this thread. And you missed it or ignored it.

Obama started Russiagate because he ordered a report according to you. What you really mean (I think) is that Russiagate got its start as an American issue in the press because he ordered a report. Is this what you mean? Because here's my thinking: Russiagate was started whenever Russia started its campaign to try to influence our election. That may have started years and years ago and we won't know when that was exactly till the evidence is presented from the full investigation. Or maybe never.

So then maybe the question should be: When did intelligence communities get their first clues that Russia was trying to influence the election? That was in 2015. Way before the Obama report request. If you think about it, Obama's request for a report would have to follow information collected which spurred Obama's request for a report. I mean, unless you believe Obama made all this stuff up by himself. So we need to establish what you consider the original information.

I saw a report yesterday (I'll get a link if you want) that named the think tank in Russia that did a paper on how to influence our election. They offered a blueprint plan for this. This came back in 2015 I believe. Today, Tillerson said we may add to the sancions on Russia because of this attempt to influence our election. He is NOT denying Russia attempted to influence our election. He is speaking of it as a proven fact. Did you read that or not?

OK, don't go crazy now. Just clarify what you see as the origins of this issue and we will go from there.
 
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Re: Russia/Trump Connections - Fleshing Out the Story

Postby SeaFreak on Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:33 am

HawkBowler wrote: I realize there's low voter turnout, but the millions that did vote can be used to determine how all Americans would have voted with scientific accuracy.


That's a bizarre comment. Sampling theory revolves around representative samples. We're talking about two distinct groups, engaged voters and apathetic non-voters.

Saying it again, of voting age citizens, very few actually liked Trump on election day. 55% turnout * 46% of votes = 25%. Half just voted against Hillary. These are easy numbers. Half of America did not vote for Trump as you claim. More like 12% of America.

HawkBowler wrote: So when we have a media that swings 90/10 in one direction, they are not representing America evenly.



The media does no such thing. The whole game is to divide people up and have them pointing fingers at each other. Fox News is a juggernaut. Just look at their TV ratings. If 9 out of 10 news outlets slam Trump, that's not 90% bias if 50% of people are watching Fox News. Your math is sucking. When I pull up stats for ratings and viewership, they all show Fox as a behemoth.

https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus ... 1_PM.0.png

Moreover, if you want to talk about representing America evenly, I really don't think you should be praising the Republican party ever.
Last edited by SeaFreak on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Russia/Trump Connections - Fleshing Out the Story

Postby HawkBowler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:34 am

Very civilized of you, Soggy. I appreciate that.

So then maybe the question should be: When did intelligence communities get their first clues that Russia was trying to influence the election? That was in 2015. Way before the Obama report request. If you think about it, Obama's request for a report would have to follow information collected which spurred Obama's request for a report. I mean, unless you believe Obama made all this stuff up by himself. So we need to establish what you consider the original information.


The report established the premise for both the marathon media coverage as well as the congressional investigation. Since it came from the top, the president and top IC officials, it was taken as fact that A) Russia hacked the DNC and gave the documents to Wikileaks and B) the intent of Russia was for Trump to win.

The report is key to Russiagate for a few reasons:

1. Russia is not the only country to try and influence our election. Both Isreal and China may have also hacked the DNC servers. Both Obama and the intel people chose to only focus on Russia.
2. We have had dozens of foreign hack attacks against our country during the Obama admin. The DNC hack is the only one in which he took counter measures against another government. It's also worth noting that the DNC is a private organization and not the government. This was an indirect attack on our government at best.
3. The report was necessary to establish consensus opinion of the intel community.

Are we good so far?
Last edited by HawkBowler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Russia/Trump Connections - Fleshing Out the Story

Postby HawkBowler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:38 am

SeaFreak wrote:The media does no such thing. The whole game is to divide people up and have them pointing fingers at each other. Fox News is a juggernaut. Just look at their TV ratings. If 9 out of 10 news outlets slam Trump, that's not 90% bias if 50% of people are watching Fox News. Your math is sucking. When I pull up stats for ratings and viewership, they all show Fox as a behemoth.



SeaFreak, you must have missed the news. A new study came out that showed 90% negative coverage toward Trump. I posted the link earlier in this thread. There's no question that the media has been biased against Trump and that they don't evenly represent American society as a whole.

If you forced all Americans to vote, the results and the percetage split would be about the same. You're making a false argument that since people didn't vote that they wouldn't vote for Trump. It's also a false assumption that people voted for Trump simply because they hated Hillary. It was a binary choice, so people are always going to vote for people that they least hate. The same could be said for Hillary voters who were actually Never Trumpers. That argument is a wash.
Last edited by HawkBowler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Russia/Trump Connections - Fleshing Out the Story

Postby fanaticalmariner on Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:03 am

So America has 10% of the voting public who fit into the "DEPLORABLES" category!

On a personal note ..... I am acquainted with many who voted for the gropenfuhrer. The vast majority of them are males. The few I am familiar with socially are of low intellect; "trades people". You can hardly find a young person who will speak civilly about the gropenfuhrer.

Personally ..... I place 90% of the blame for the election outcome on the Democratic Party for having nominated a hideously unattractive candidate. If anyone cares to examine the demographics of the 2016 voters compared to the 2012 & 2008 voters ...... you'll find that the African or Black American voters stayed home in 2016 ...... fewer than 50% of those African or Black Americans who voted in 2008 & 2012 bothered to vote in 2016. They were delighted to vote Democrat in 2008 & 2012 but when a white candidate is on the Democratic ballot ...... more than half of them couldn't be bothered to vote. There were several million of these Obama voters who found it important to vote for a black candidate but didn't have enough devotion to their politics to bother to vote for a white person. What this means is black Americans are (in general) every bit as racially prejudiced towards whites as whites are prejudiced towards blacks or people of color. RACISM is still a social evil ...... endorsed by people of every color. This is the shame we Americans all share.
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Re: Russia/Trump Connections - Fleshing Out the Story

Postby HawkBowler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:11 am

fanaticalmariner wrote:What this means is black Americans are (in general) every bit as racially prejudiced towards whites as whites are prejudiced towards blacks or people of color. RACISM is still a social evil ...... endorsed by people of every color. This is the shame we Americans all share.


That sounds about as accurate as we can get. Van Jones said after the election that it was a 'White Lash' against Obama policies. When asked what happened with black people in 08 and 12, when Obama received the highest black vote in history, Van admitted that that was a 'black lash'.

I don't think the problem is racism, though. It's that people are played from the top on certain wedge issues and distrust that give them no other choice. You're right... a lot of black people are conservative and yet they voted against their ideology. The reason is because they were taught to distrust the other side through demagoguery. There's also the novelty of the first ever black candidate for president.

The problem for Obama is that he didn't have your traditional African American upbringing. He was raised more like a privileged white guy with the elite track of Columbia and Harvard. He didn't go through the same struggles. People voted based on skin color, thinking he was like them, when Obama is not even comparable to most white people. Just another rich elite globalist.

I voted for Obama for many of the same reasons that black people did. I thought he would be good for race relations. But that was before I started looking into his ideology and the actions he's taken as president based on that radical ideology.
Last edited by HawkBowler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Russia/Trump Connections - Fleshing Out the Story

Postby Soggyblogger on Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:16 am

HawkBowler wrote:Very civilized of you, Soggy. I appreciate that.

So then maybe the question should be: When did intelligence communities get their first clues that Russia was trying to influence the election? That was in 2015. Way before the Obama report request. If you think about it, Obama's request for a report would have to follow information collected which spurred Obama's request for a report. I mean, unless you believe Obama made all this stuff up by himself. So we need to establish what you consider the original information.


The report established the premise for both the marathon media coverage as well as the congressional investigation. Since it came from the top, the president and top IC officials, it was taken as fact that A) Russia hacked the DNC and gave the documents to Wikileaks and B) the intent of Russia was for Trump to win.

The report is key to Russiagate for a few reasons:

1. Russia is not the only country to try and influence our election. Both Isreal and China may have also hacked the DNC servers. Both Obama and the intel people chose to only focus on Russia.
2. We have had dozens of foreign hack attacks against our country during the Obama admin. The DNC hack is the only one in which he took counter measures against another government. It's also worth noting that the DNC is a private organization and not the government. This was an indirect attack on our government at best.
3. The report was necessary to establish consensus opinion of the intel community.

Are we good so far?


No, we are not good so far, but we may be able to control the situation. You have tried to establish too many facts and I thought we were trying to establish a starting point. You ignored most of my attempt to do that. Are we attempting to find the start of media coverage? Wikileaks leaked Hillary's emails when? Way before the report. Manafort's firing was part of this whole media coverage and his ties to Russia were an issue during the early campaign. I'm really trying here to understand your thinking. The report was based upon intelligence findings. Would you agree? If no, we need to find out where we are disconnecting before proceeding.
 
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Re: Russia/Trump Connections - Fleshing Out the Story

Postby HawkBowler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:22 am

Soggyblogger wrote:No, we are not good so far, but we may be able to control the situation. You have tried to establish too many facts and I thought we were trying to establish a starting point. You ignored most of my attempt to do that. Are we attempting to find the start of media coverage? Wikileaks leaked Hillary's emails when? Way before the report. Manafort's firing was part of this whole media coverage and his ties to Russia were an issue during the early campaign. I'm really trying here to understand your thinking. The report was based upon intelligence findings. Would you agree? If no, we need to find out where we are disconnecting before proceeding.


I think we have to start with the premise. We also need the same chronology of events. If Obama doesn't order the intel report to be created in December of last year, the hacking of the DNC is forgotten just like all other hacks during the Obama admin. There is no Russiagate without the consensus report from the NSA, CIA and FBI. Do you agree?

Wikileaks... Manafort and all that is the cart before the horse. We can explore those roads, but first we need the starting point for the controversy.
 
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Re: Russia/Trump Connections - Fleshing Out the Story

Postby fanaticalmariner on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:09 am

The real shame of the 2016 election was the outcome. Americans voted for the most unqualified candidate, the most racially bigoted, most religiously divisive, most financially disconnected with 99%, most repulsive socially and morally in the 240 year history of electoral politics.

With any good luck ..... the Russia-gate fiasco will result in his impeachment or perhaps some gun crazy lunatic will do the world a favor. VP Pense is a least a person with morals.
 
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